Israel + Palestine: Interview with Gabor Mate

Nov 21, 2023

This week’s piece offers a conversation between Gabor Mate and his daughter, Hannah Mate, on Israel’s War on Palestine. (The U.N.’s description.)

Hannah and Gabor Mate sit together in the sunshine against a backdrop of trees. Hannah is wearing dark sunglasses; their heads are inclined towards one another. Both are smiling. — Hannah and Gabor Mate sitting outside together

At times, I’ve had my differences with Gabor’s take on addictions, and also with what can come off as a interpersonal heavy-handedness—both of which he acknowledges in an open and graceful way.

In this conversation, he is at his best, if one can say such a thing about such a terrible and protracted part of history. This is a vulnerable, heartfelt, and stunning conversation.

No matter what “side” you fall on, I hope this offers you solace, solidarity, and resolve.

For those who prefer to see this written out, I noted with dismay the terrible quality of captioning. I’ve taken the time to transcribe it by hand below. I’ve also added the links to the resources Gabor offered, many of which were unintelligible in the captions. (This is a huge disability justice issue, but that’s something I’ll address another time.)

For those who don’t know, Gabor Mate was born in Budapest to Jewish parents one month before the Nazi occupation of Hungary in 1944. When he was five months old, his maternal grandparents were killed in Auschwitz; his father survived forced labor for the Nazi Party and he narrowly escaped death. He has a great personal stake in this conversation.

Hannah: Hi, Dad.

Gabor: Hi, Hannah.

Hannah: Hi. So, we're here today to talk about what's going on in Israel and Palestine. And, um, three weeks ago today, on October 7^th, Hamas entered Israel and killed 1,400 Israelis [ref: this number has been adjusted by Israel to 1,200 people killed] and took over 200 Israeli citizens hostage. And in response, Israel has retaliated in a in a brutal fashion, killing thousands of Palestinians.

And on October 7^th, you were away on a very busy speaking tour in eastern Europe. And you did one radio interview on the subject, but we haven't yet addressed this on social media. So for many, this is long overdue, and I want to acknowledge that. And we're here to talk about it today.

Gabor: I'm glad to finally have the opportunity to be back home and to have a conversation with you about it, amongst many other conversations that I'll be having online which we can talk about later.

Hannah: Sure. So I wonder if we want to just begin acknowledging how difficult it is to talk about this no matter where you stand. And I'll let you speak to that.

Gabor: This is one of the issues that, first of all is most close to my heart, and has been for decades. And for a lot of people, it's like that. And it's almost imp possible to speak about it without emotion; it doesn't matter which side you're on. It just brings us so much history. so much pain--and frankly so much trauma—that it's difficult for us to engage with the rational parts of our minds when our emotions are so overwhelming, in the light of such devastating events. It's a very difficult conversation.

Hannah: It is. And we're going to do our best today. We, you know, want to remain regulated and rational and all those things. And also acknowledging that for both of us this is emotional as well. It's been a difficult few weeks. So why don't you go ahead and give us your comment, beginning with you know what happened on October 7^th, and then, of course, sharing you know some of the history before that. But let's begin with October 7th

Gabor: Well, October 7^th was um by any definition an atrocity and a tragedy for those who suffered it. People being killed, civilians, non-combatants being taken hostage. And for their relatives and countrypeople, you know, their fellow Israelis and many people around the world, they could not have experienced it as anything other than as an assault that was historically reminiscent of other assaults that Jews have experienced throughout history. And that's the light of which a lot of people experienced it and interpreted it. That's totally understandable. And from that point of view, the pain, the fear, the rage, and even the desire for revenge are totally understandable on the emotional side.

What is difficult to remember at times like this, is that there is another side—that there's other people having their own experiences based on their own history. Based on their own experience. And nobody expressed that better than the Israeli journalist Amira Hass, who for 30 years has been reporting from the West Bank. And Amira said in the aftermath of the October 7th events, and I'm going to quote from her article now:

“In a few days,” she wrote, “Israelis went through what Palestinians have experienced as a matter of routine for decades, and are still experiencing: military incursions, death, cruelty, slain children, bodies piled up on the road. Siege, fear, anxiety over loved ones’ captivity, and searing humiliation.”

And so, history did not begin on October the 7^th. And nothing I'm going to say here today or ever say will justify what happened on October 7^th, because that's not justifiable. And I don't know anybody who says that it is. At the same time, if our intention is to move forward, to create some basis for peace, we have to be able to understand the experience of the Other.

And the experience of the Other for the last 80 years, and this is simply historical fact, has been mass killings. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed. Thousands of children have been killed. This is going back to 1947, 1948. That people have been expelled from their land. They've been occupied. Yes, there are 220 or so Israeli hostages, for which one can only express regret and pray for their safety. Thousands of Palestinians are held hostage in Israeli jails and tortured—professionally tortured.

Last year I was in the occupied territories working with women who had been tortured in Israeli jails. So, without going to the long history I will only tell you that we have to ask ourselves: What fed such hatred, such desire for revenge on the part of those people that broke out of Gaza. And Gaza has been called the largest concentration camp in the world by an Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling.

And I can only stop here and say, I'm not going to go into the history now. I will do so in other forums. I did a long interview a couple of days ago that will be online soon. I'll be doing an online question-and-answer period with the organization Sand Spirituality and Non-Duality next week sometime. But in the meanwhile, people do need to understand that horrible as those events are—and nothing I'm saying, again, I’ll repeat, justifies it—at the same time it did not begin on October the 7^th. And there is information that people owe it to themselves to discover, is information from Israeli and Palestinian sources. May I mention some of them now?

Hannah: Please.

Gabor: Yeah. In terms of Israeli histories, begin with this book, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, by Simha Flapan. Simha Flapan was a lifelong Kibbutz member. He was a Zionist. He fought in the ‘48 War. He was the head of the [Zionist] Mapam party's Arab Affairs branch. And long ago, he wrote this book where he pointed out that the things that many people believe about the birth of Israel was not the way it happened. That the 4748 war was not the way it's presented in the official Israeli and pro-Zionist histories. You can begin with Simha Flapan.

Hannah: And we'll put the names of sources everything that we discuss in the description of the video.

Gabor: I’m sorry, say it again?

Hannah: We'll put the names of everything that we in the description of the video for people access.

Gabor: Fair enough. Then there's the modern Israel historian Ilan Pappe. He's got a book called the history of modern Palestine you could check that out. As a Palestinian source for Palestinian history, you could read Rashid Khalidi’s “The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism.” Wonderful book; very objective and not and in no way anti-Jewish. You can read Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, that describes what really happened in 1947-1948. You can read the magnificent Norman Finkelstein's book Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom, published in 2018.

You can watch Norman Finkelstein interviews with Chris Hedges in the last couple of weeks. You can watch Norman Finkelstein’s interview with Mikhaila Peterson in the last couple of days on YouTube—again, a very succinct, learned, measured account of the world’s of the history of Gaza which as I may have mentioned before the Israeli sociologist Baruch Kimmerling has called the world's largest concentration camp. And these people that have committed the atrocities on October the 7th were born and grew up in the world's largest concentration camps where, repeatedly, they've been massacred. And deprived. And oppressed. And none of this justifies it, again. But I'm telling you, if we're going to move forward on this, we have to be able to understand not just our own emotional reactions, but also the emotions, and the circumstances that fueled those emotions of the other side.

Hannah: Thanks Dad. I want to ask you about a couple of things that you mentioned. You mentioned anti-Jewishness. And you mentioned concentration camps. And I think many people who follow your work know that you are yourself a Holocaust Survivor. And your grandparents died in Auschwitz, were killed in Auschwitz.

Gabor: Yes.

Hannah: And so anti-Semitism and concentration camps: These are not words that are distant from your life experience. And I wonder if we could comment on the difference between anti-Semitism and criticizing the state of Israel, and when those two might get conflated and when they're different. How do we discern?

Gabor: There are people that hate Jews just because they're Jews. Not because of what Jews did or didn't do, but just because they're Jews. Just as there are people who hate Blacks, not because of what Blacks did or didn't do. There are people who hate Muslims, not because of what Muslims did or didn't do. And these people will take any Jewish action, or any Black action, or any Muslim action that can be criticized, and they will use it as fuel for the hatred that they already harbor within themselves. And Jews have been subject to that kind of anti-Semitism for a long time, where the anti-Jewish feelings had nothing to do with anything that Jews did.

Gabor: And there’s a history of this going back many hundreds of years—and even longer, actually. And that culminated in the most horrible event in history, which is the mechanized, scientifically-,planned organized attempt to eliminate a whole people, of which my grandparents were victims, and of which I myself as an infant almost was the victim as well. And there are some people like that. And they will use any criticism of Israel as a fuel for their already embedded anti-Jewish sentiments.

This is me, Bo, inserting a reflection: Gabor refers to the Holocaust as “the most horrible event in history.” The Holocaust was an unconscionable atrocity, a series of crimes against humanity for which full amends and reparations can never be made. At the same time, I’d like to point to the existence of several other historical events that were also terrible: the genocide of First Nations in the United States and Canada (and the French and Spanish colonization of the Americas) resulted in the killing of between 8 and 100 million people. And the transatlantic slave trade encompassed a period of over 400 years, and enslaved 15 million African men, women, and children. In fact, historians say that these events served as the terrible “inspiration” for Hitler’s genocide of the Jews and Poles in World War II. There are others, too: Sudan. Ethiopia. Syria. For more, read last week’s column. Back to the video.

That's not what I see for the most part. For the most part, I see that the people that criticize Israel do so with a lot of pain in their hearts. They actually want justice. And they want justice for everybody. And they criticize Israel not because it’s Jewish, but because of what it does. And what it does has been called by recently by 2,000 Israeli and Jewish academics, and rabbis, and historians, apartheid. What it does has been called by the former deputy chief of the Israel Defense staff similar to the situation of Jews in Nazi Germany. This is an Israeli soldier who said that—not an anti-Semite. And he said that just as the Nazi thugs could attack Jews with impunity, and even with the support of the police, so can settlers in the occupied territories attack, kill, destroy Palestinian property. Murder even children.

And when the Palestinians fight back, the Army shows up to support the settlers. And this was said by a former deputy head of the Israel Defense Forces. So that a lot of people who are not in the least racist one way or the other have genuinely come to rue and lament and oppose the actions of the Israeli State. And as a Jew, I'm one of them. And when a Jew speaks up, if you're a pro-Zionist who fully believes that Jewishness is identifiable with Zionism in Israel, then naturally you'll think that anybody who criticizes Israel is either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. But that perception is a product of your belief that the Jewishness is identified with Israel. Whereas if you look at it historically, there were many Jews all along who criticized the Zionist movement, and who pointed out the potential dangers, and who warned what's going to happen.

Hannah: And I might add that there are Israelis who are now protesting in the streets what Israel is doing in Gaza.

Gabor: Exactly. And there were 500 Jews that were arrested in Washington a few days ago for protesting.

Hannah: And last night many, many Jews gathered in Grand Central Station in New York. And the New York Times did a story on it, which is pretty remarkable to see.

Gabor: And so, look, to sum this up: It's such a painful situation. And I mean, such suffering. And recently, Israel has suffered in a way that it hasn't suffered before. And that's to be lamented. And the people there need to be supported because they're having a hard time. There are many Israeli homeless right now because of the threats. And I know from Israeli friends of mine that Israeli Mental Health Services are overwhelmed. That is true.

It also has to be acknowledged that when it comes to the scale of suffering imposed by one party on the other, there's barely any comparison. Historically speaking, the number of deaths, the imprisonments, the suffering, the deprivation has been the prerogative of the stronger party. I’m not speaking morally here; I'm speaking practically. I'm not saying to justify anything. I'm saying, Do we want to move forward to peace? Or do we just want to harbor our emotions We're entitled to our emotions. But when we're emotional, and only emotional, our perspective narrows. It becomes defensive. And we get cons we get consumed by self-defense and attack. Understandable. That doesn't lead to peace. What needs to leads to peace is a willingness to understand the experience of the other, and for us to be guided by the parts of our brain that are adult. And that happens in the mid fontal cortex, where empathy, insight, compassion, self-awareness are modulated. So we need to deal with our emotions, not to repress them. Not to reject them. But also not let them be the guides of our actions, especially when these emotions are conditioned by a view of history that for the most part excludes the experience of the Other.

Hannah: So, speaking of peace, um let's talk political strategy right now. Because there are many people out there who wish to see peace. Who feel helpless to know what to do. And there is a huge movement calling for a ceasefire. And there are several organizations that are mobilizing to encourage, to protest in the streets, encourage people to call their representatives. So I wonder if you want to speak on that for a little bit.

Gabor: Well… Just as I said that October the 7th was unjustifiable, so has everything that happened since then been unjustifiable. What Israel is doing right now in in Gaza has been called by Israeli Scholars and Jewish Scholars, genocide. By any definition. I don't like using that word. Actually, I don't even agree with it, because I want to reserve genocide when somebody decides to eliminate physically another people. And that happened to the Jews in Europe. What happens right—but by international definition of genocide, I'm not talking about my own personal definition. But by International definition of genocide what is happening right now is genocide. That's simply how it is.

Hannah: What is the difference? Because I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean.

Gabor: Any large attack that kills a large number of civilians, moves them out of their place, puts them under danger by and large is considered genocide. So without getting into the debate about genocide, actually is let's not even use the word. What's happening is a massive war crime. And just as the events of October the 7th are not justifiable by anything that Israel did before, although it's explainable it's not justifiable. The two are not the same thing.

At the same time, what Israel is doing right now is not in in any way justifiable. It's not a response to what just happened; it's what Israel has always done when there was much less provocation: the killing of large number of Palestinians. Twenty thousand civilians died in 1982 in the Lebanese War. Tens of thousands were killed in 1947-48. Civilians. Deliberately. These are not questionable historical facts.

So what's going on right now is not a response to October the 7^th. It's a continuation of what's been going on for 80 years now. And I could give many examples. So. There needs to be a ceasefire right now, There needs to be a ceasefire. There needs to be negotiations for the release of the hostages. And Hamas has asked—and you tell me how this is unreasonable—that Israel lets go the children and the women in Israeli jails. How's that unreasonable?

I'm not here to support Hamas. I don't like Hamas. I don't like what they stand for, I don't like what they do. I don't like what they do to their own people. But they have made a reasonable demand about exchange of hostages. Let that happen. Because those hostages that Hamas holds are innocent people, just as much as thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails are innocent. And they're not even charged with anything. And they don't even go on trial. But they're tortured. And I've seen that with my own eyes when I was in the occupied territories last year.

So let there be some reason here. So let there be a reasonable exchange of hostages. Let there be a ceasefire. Let this mass murder stop: 2,000 Palestinian children.

Israel's dropped more bombs within a few days on a small territory 5 miles by 25 miles than Americans dropped in a whole year in Afghanistan.

Hannah: Today the number is closer to 3,000 Palestinian children.

Gabor: Yeah. Who can possibly justify that? Who can believe that this is defensive? No. This is simply a continuation of what's going on for a long time. It needs to stop. And anybody of conscience—Jewish, non-Jewish—needs to demand that our politicians for once act on the principles that they say they believe in. Which is justice and peace.

So, ceasefire right now. A reasonable resolution to the hostage issue. Yes, the release of the Israeli hostages. And yes, the release of women and children held in Israeli jails.

And then a process that finally recognizes that there are two people there. We talk about the Hamas Charter. Does anybody ever talk about the Likud Charter? The Likud being the leading political party of Netanyahu. The Likud Charter says, No two states east of the Jordan River. So, let’s not just concentrate on the unreasonableness of the one side, without recognizing the utter rigid, oppressive activity of the other side.

And again, I've said this before: Yes, there are two sides to every story. But they're not equal. The side with the power has the responsibility. And who's had the power? Israel has the—they say it has the world's fourth most powerful military. That's after Russia, China, and the United States. Israel is the one that has held the territories, and has occupied them, and has populated them. Ethnically cleansed them now for over 50 years. Israel is the one that has blockaded Gaza, imposing conditions under which children grow up as prisoners.

So while there are two sides to every story, and people are suffering on both sides, and that suffering and grief needs to be acknowledged… politically speaking, there's no equivalence here. There's a side with overwhelming power, power and a side that every once in a while as recently, gives some horrible, horrific response to what they have experienced. Again, not to justify but are we going to move forward, or are we simply going to repeat the traumatization and tragedy of the decades? That's the question that everybody has to confront.

Hannah: Dad, I think before we wrap up this conversation, I just want to take a deep breath. And we both can. And maybe those watching can as well.

[Hannah and Gabor breathe together.]

Gabor: And I recognize that what I say is very difficult for people, some people to hear and it's even painful, And some people it might even seem traitorous. Here's what I can say, Hannah. I'm responsible for what I say. And I make every effort to ground what I say in the facts as I understand them, and as a former Zionist, a youth leader, and as a Jew. And as a human being. I make every effort to research everything I say. This is whether in my medical work or teachings, or in the political realm. That doesn't make me right. But it does mean that I've made every effort to understand every aspect of the situation.

At the same time, I know that emotions arise in response to all this; I have my own emotions. I go from despair, sometimes to rage, sometimes to hatred. And like you said, I got to take a deep breath sometime. So I'm responsible for what I say. I'm responsible for how I say it. When I speak with rage, as I did with a family member yesterday, they just feel attacked. This brings up a lot of emotions. I'm responsible for what I say. I'm responsible for how I say it. I'm not responsible for how people hear it. And I'm not responsible for how people interpret it. That's on each and every one of us.

So let's all speak with as much information as we can reasonably gather. Let's all speak with as much compassion for everybody as we can possibly muster. Let's all speak with as much peace in our own Hearts as we can possibly find in this terrible, terrible, terrible situation. And let's respect one another no matter what we believe and what we say. But let's be responsible not just for how we speak, but also for how we listen. It's painful enough. It's painful enough—it’s unbearably painful for a lot of us right now. We need to really find space in ourselves where there is peace, and there is compassion.

Hannah: Thanks, Dad. I think um it would be nice to end this conversation with a few more resources for people. So you mentioned several books. And I wonder if you want to speak to a few journalistic--is that a word—journalistic outlets you trust.

Gabor: Yeah. So the information that most people receive comes from the mainstream press and the mainstream media. They're not unbiased.

If you look at the history of any war—the Vietnam War, the Iraq War, the Afghan War, and the Israeli-Palestine conflict—the mainstream media always has a point of view that they push relentlessly, which in general is always aligned with American foreign policy, whatever that happens to be at the time. So nobody could have found out the truth about the Vietnam War as it was going on by reading the New York Times. Not until very late in the war. Same with the Iraq War, where the American Press pushed this agenda of the weapons of mass destruction, which a 5-year-old child could know was a complete concoction. So don't just make up your mind based on what you see in the mainstream media. Take it in, but consider other sources. Other sources include the books that I mentioned.

The Israeli journalist Amira Hass, who's lived in the occupied territory for 30 years and has painstakingly reported the oppression that she witnesses every day.

Gideon Levy, who was on the Editorial Board of Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper, who has been magnificent over the decades in his courage and his willingness to tell the truth—which at times has put his life in danger.

Look at the YouTube videos of the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, whose books I mentioned.

Look at the statements by Israeli soldiers on YouTube who refuse to refuse to serve any occupied territories because of their brutalities that they've witnessed or were forced to participate in.

Online: There are wonderful resources. Democracy Now, Amy Goodman and her program has been absolutely stellar in bringing in alternative Jewish and Israeli voices who speak a different truth than you read in the mainstream media. And she’s also allowed—invited--Palestinian voices to speak.

I mentioned Norman Finkelstein: Look up any of his talks on YouTube.

Check out my interviews on YouTube as an alternative next week should be online and big interview I did a couple of days ago. And again, the organization Sand: Spirituality and non-Duality will sponsor an online Q&A with me next week sometime.

And I'll be speaking on this issue whenever I have an opportunity, because nothing is more important to me. I've already had cancellations. I had a major Canadian University cancel a talk I was going to give on a totally different subject because of my views on Israel-Palestine. I'm quite willing to accept that; that's part of the price you pay on speaking on this issue, is you're going to be cancelled.

Other sources. My son Aaron and his program The Grayzone (News) or Pushback. Or his Substack. Always researching the truth and presenting it. My son Daniel, the older brother, the oldest brother I should say, Hannah, he's had a couple of IG Lives. Daniel B. Mate. I can only take my hat off, because he speaks about the situation which such dispassion and such fairness, and such compassion, and such clarity. So a lot of people have really appreciated Daniel speaking on this issue.

I believe Chris Hedges, again, his interview with Norman Finkelstein.

Hannah, I also think you wanted to talk about resources to help people on both sides.

Hannah: Yeah.

Gabor: And both sides need support right now. People are human beings. Both sides are suffering. They need support. So why don't you speak about that.

Hannah: Thank you. Yes, that’s right. There are two political activism organizations that I follow, I wanted to mention, whose work I really respect right now. Jewish Voice for Peace, and If Not Now are both Jewish-led organizations who are speaking out against what Israel is doing in Gaza, in addition to being voices for peace for all people in the region. And then there are two organizations that I'd invite you to join me in donating to, and we'll leave the comments open so other people can put organizations that they support in the comments.

So the first is the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund, or the PCRF. They offer vital medical care and aid to Gazan children.

And the second is an organization in Israel called Dror Israel, which is an organization that I used to be part of in my in my youth. This is an offshoot of an organization or youth movement I grew up called Habonim Dror. And currently um educators and support workers are offering psychosocial supports and other practical, very important care to children, Israeli children who were directly traumatized by the Hamas attacks on September—excuse me—October 7^th. So that, again, that's Palestinian Children's Relief Fund and Dror Israel. And all of these we’ll put in the description of the video.

And lastly, I'll just implore everyone who's watching who may feel compelled to comment to voice your opinion and keep it respectful. We want people to have a discourse. We don't want to limit the comments here. And I've seen how much vitriol can get shared online. So in line with what you were sharing, Dad, about managing our reactions, being responsible, I invite everyone to be responsible with their words even if they disagree.

Gabor: Thank you, Hannah. I’ll only add that I live in Canada where there's a group called Independent Jewish Voices, IJV. So that's another organization.

Let me just say, finally, that this is such a difficult discussion. Not just because of the emotions. People have such different versions of history. And people are bringing up arguments about this peace agreement or that, and so on. I'm just, again, advising you:

“Before you speak, if you want to speak responsibly, do check out other sources. Because the history you may believe in, you may sincerely and genuinely hold, but it may not be as accurate as you believe. You really need to do your research on this one.”

With that, Hannah, thank you very much for facilitating this. I’m glad to finally have an opportunity to address our particular social media audience. I know not all of you, or many of you did not sign up to follow me because you wanted to hear my views on the Middle East. You signed up because you might work on trauma, healing, child development, and so on. If you're not interested in this subject, I don't want to impose it on you.

But at the same time, personally this is not an issue that I could ever stay quiet about. And I encourage all of you to just see how you feel about all this, one side or the other or indifferent, and take responsibility for wherever you're at. And allow us to have our own responses, which really come from the heart, and from a real desire for justice for everyone, which all human beings deserve.

We're sending love, and compassion, and prayers for peace to everyone in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank. Everyone in the world: Jewish, Muslim, Arab, Palestinian, Christian. Anyone who may be directly or indirectly affected by what's going on right now. We're grieving together. And we're standing on the side of Peace. So thank you, Dad, for this conversation. And goodbye, everyone.

UPGRADE TO PAID

Here, I’d like also to offer as accompaniment an equally stunning, illuminating, tender conversation between the great writer, activist, historian, multi-hyphenate Michelle Alexander, writer and activist Ta-Nehisi Coates, and writer and activist Rashid Khalidi, whose book Gabor recommends (listed in the resources below). Someone time-stamped this in the comments section. (No time to transcribe this; maybe next time.)